How to make Mech and Stargate play viable.

BronzeKnee

United States5214 Posts

October 27 2012 06:50 GMT

Please note: You may now test the changes proposed in this thread on the WOL NA server. Search for the map "BronzeKnee TvP" in the Arcade.

________________________________________________________

The Map Pool Menace
________________________________________________________

No unit has suffered more from the ever evolving map pool than the Siege Tank. This is because the Siege Tank is a positional unit. It is very powerful when sieged up in a good position, yet very weak when caught out of Siege Mode. While all units suffer from bad positions and benefit from good ones, positional units like the Siege Tank or Broodlord take it to the extreme. Positional units lack mobility and they can seem unstoppable when in a good position but useless when caught in a bad position. This is the opposite of a unit like the Marine, who is very mobile and whose effectiveness doesn't swing as wildly in relation to it's positioning. Unfortunately as maps have changed, the viability of Siege Tanks has declined.

The early map pool featured small maps like Steppes of War, where a Siege Tank stationed in the middle of the map could hit the ramp of a natural. And with it's massive damage in siege mode, the Siege Tank dominated the game positionally on small maps, because a few Siege Tanks could control a wide swath of the map. You just needed to leapfrog your Tanks a few times to get across the map and literally siege up your opponents base. And the immobility of the Siege Tank wasn't a giant issue because on a small map there aren't as many places to move them because the map is small and because of the range the Siege Tank can fire in relation to the map size.

[image loading]

Siege Tanks in the middle of Steppes of War can actually hit the ramp of both naturals...

Small maps limit the area and positions a Tank user has to control, and so it is easy to see why Siege Tanks had their damage reduced from 60 to 50 versus armored and 35 to other units when maps were smaller. But the map pool today is vastly different. Maps have grown dramatically and a Siege Tank stationed in the middle is not even close to hitting the ramp of a natural. It follows then that a few Siege Tanks control a very small piece of the map due to map size. And thus due to larger maps Mech play based around the positional Siege Tank is much easier to exploit and not as effective because Siege Tanks have a much larger area to cover, and to cover the larger area they either have to move more and then their immobility restrains them, or they have to be spread thinner.

[image loading]

...but Entombed Valley is a different story. The Tanks are about two screen lengths away from hitting the natural.

Thin Tank lines combined with the damage nerf allow an opposing Protoss Warpgate army that has significant health and mobility to easily find a weakpoint in the Siege Tank line and exploit it. This has meant that deathball play has dominated TvP, because positional units like the Siege Tank simply aren't powerful enough to make up for their immobility on the current maps. If a Terran player wants to combat a Protoss deathball with Mech units, he has to form a deathball of his own, and then the mobile Protoss player's army can circumvent the Terran player because Siege Tanks have poor mobility.

[image loading]

Behind the firepower of Siege Tanks, TLO is successfully pushing back Hasuobs army, and ends up pushing directly into Hasuobs's main and kills his third.

[image loading]

But just a few minutes later, Hasuobs flanks the powerful Mech force using Warpgate units, and crashing through a thin defensive line he decimates TLO's economy. TLO lacked the mobility to return to his base and defend, and small numbers of Siege Tanks simply crumbled under the Gateway pressure.

Positional play offers many advantages to deathball play. First, it adds another thing for SC2 players to master, positioning. This raises the skill ceiling in an interesting way (far more interesting that drilling yourself to never stop building Probes early). Second, it adds variety to game play. Deathball play generally ends with both players building a big ball and smashing it against one another. For instance, most late game battles in WOL are very similar in ZvP, with a deathball of Broodlord/Infestor/Corrupter battling a Mothership/Colossus/Stalker/Archon deathball. Positional play adds variety because the position of the units will have just as much to do with the outcome as the unit choices themselves. Finally, positional play means more decisions are being made as players more carefully consider positioning and its consequences. And the more decisions being made means more chances for skill to show. TvT often shows off the advantages and variety of this interesting style play for viewers, as Terran players jockey for position with their Siege Tanks.

Two things are required for positional Mech play based around the Siege Tank to function properly with the current maps in TvP. First, Siege Tanks have to do enough damage so opponents can no longer build a deathball, throw it at sieged up Mech army, and win. There should be no combination of ground units that can assault a well positioned, upgraded and sieged up 200/200 Mech army and win. The counter to a Mech force is to go around it, or force it out of position, because Siege Tanks are only strong when in siege mode. The second thing required is that small groups of Tanks with limited support needs to be an effective defensive force. If a Bio player outmaneuvers the main army of a Mech player and rushes a few Tanks defending an expansion, his attack force can take significant damage and lose units on the first volley. This is rarely the case versus Protoss because of the durability of Protoss Gateway units; they simple don't take critical damage from a single Tank shot. Furthermore a Protoss player can use Warpgates to attack different locations with large forces quickly, straining the limited mobility of Mech. Tanks simply lack both the mobility and firepower to respond to these kinds of attacks effectively.

[image loading]

This player was able to get my army out of position with Hellion harass and siege up an expansion of mine...

[image loading]

...but it didn't matter, my Immortals a-moved through him.

The solution is reduce the cooldown of the Siege Tank from 3.00 to 2.25-2.50 while reducing their damage versus light units to 30 (+2 per upgrade) from 35 (+3 per upgrade). Faster firing Tanks would have significantly more DPS in sustained battles, which allows them to crush deathballs. Also Mech wouldn't be as easy to exploit with Warpgates, as a small force of Tanks in a defensive position can now deal the damage necessary to push back small counter attacks along with the Mech changes I suggest later. However, we'd need to reduce Tank damage to light units slightly so Tank/Marine wouldn't be overwhelming versus Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk. Faster firing Tanks means that Zerglings and Banelings would be easier to pick off, so this change reduces the overall splash damage of Tanks versus light units, and number of hits required to kill a Zergling. If that change isn't enough alone, Centrifugal Hooks could give Banelings +1 armor in addition to the speed boost (meaning Banelings wouldn't die in one tank shot).

But these improvements to the Siege Tank alone wouldn't be enough to make Mech play viable. There is another problem in WOL that needs to be addressed in HOTS that also limits the Siege Tank.

Counters.

________________________________________________________

Attack of the Counters
________________________________________________________

Day[9] once said in a Daily that you don't build Immortals to counter Roaches, you build Immortals so your opponent stops building Roaches, or doesn't build them in the first place.

This has been the problem with unit counters in WOL, they limit strategies and force players not to use certain units, rather than give players a way to deal with certain strategies or units. There are several styles of play which have limited use in WOL due to unit counters.

Let's start with Mech. In addition to the Siege Tank suffering from the larger maps and damage nerf mentioned, it suffers from simply being hard countered by the Immortal in TvP. The Immortal's Hardened Shields absorb the slow powerful Tank and Thor blasts with ease, while it's massive damage to armored units means that an Immortal is a perfect a-move counter to the Siege Tank and Thor. The Immortal must be changed for Tanks to be viable in TvP.

[image loading]

Even Dragon can't get Tanks to work in HOTS. These few Immortals cleaned up the rest of his Tanks.

The Ultralisk also suffers from the Immortal in ZvP, for the same reasons. So it is very important to adjust the Immortal for ZvP too, especially since Ultralisks aren't particularly effective versus other Protoss units like Archons or Zealots.

So here is what we can do. First, remove hardened shields and 50 hit points from the Immortal (so it has 100 shields and 150 hitpoints). This change emphasizes positional play in TvP, making Siege Tanks effective vs Immortals only when in Siege Mode. Next, adjust how it does damage, giving it two attacks that deal 24 damage (+2 per upgrade) each to armored units, and two attacks that deal 10 damage (+1 per upgrade) each to other units (it currently has one attack that deals 50 damage (+5 per upgrade) to armored units and 20 damage (+2 per upgrade) to other units). This slightly reduces both the base damage and upgraded damage it does to armored units, but it doesn't change the number of hits required to kill the majority of armored targets. Marauders would still die in three hits, Stalkers and Tanks in four, and Roaches in three if the Immortals have the +1 upgrade.

The exception is the Ultralisk. With +3 attack the new Immortal would deal 60 damage instead of 65 to armored targets. And an Ultralisk then, with 6 armor that takes 59 damage from the current Immortal (meaning it takes 9 shots to kill an Ultralisk), would only take 48 damage from the new Immortal (meaning it takes 11 shots to kill an Ultralisk) because we'd apply it's 6 armor twice. Finally, we'd remove 7 seconds from the Immortals build time (from 55 to 48), and change it's cost from 250/100 to 175/75 to compensate for it's reduced durability and firepower.

This would help the Ultralisk in ZvP, and if Burrow Charge was removed and replaced with the ability for Ultralisks to walk over Zerglings, Broodlings, and Locusts, Ultralisks would be a viable and powerful alternative to Broodlords. Burrow Charge isn't working well, and even if it wasn't an upgrade it doesn't solve the DPS issues that Ultralisks have vs light units, and allowing Zerglings to attack while under Ultralisks could solve this.

The Colossus also needs to be rebalanced in order to make Mech viable. The Colossus is nearly a perfect a-move unit combining incredible firepower, long range, mobility, and significant health. Because of these strengths, it counters positional play. Colossus vs Siege Tank battles remind me of naval warfare, where the objective is to "Cross the T."

[image loading]

Imagine that the red ships above are a line of Siege Tanks, and the blue ships are Colossus. The Colossus can ball up and attack down the line from either the extreme right or left with their mobility and together battle an individual Siege Tank alone before the others can reposition. Even if the others do arrive in time, they won't have time to get into Siege Mode. This forces the Siege Tanks to ball up, and now the Colossus can simply walk around them, forcing the Tanks to unsiege, and the Colossus can engage before they resiege. For a long range AOE unit the Colossus is far too mobile for the firepower it has, especially when compared to a unit with similar firepower like the Siege Tank.

We can fix it by making the Colossus stronger and slowing it down. Let's add 100 base hitpoints to the Colossus, and extend it's range to 7 (10 upgraded). Let's also reduce its build time by 5 seconds to 70. And then let's give it around 1.2 movespeed, down from 2.25.

Now the Colossus is much slower, and is a positional unit itself. Terrans could track their movement and counter them with good Siege Tank and Viking positioning. The opportunity for a positional game between Terran Mech and Protoss Robo units is an exciting proposition. But a mobile Protoss army might now lack AOE, and thus the Archon will probably need to have it's DPS improved so Protoss can handle Zerglings, Broodlings, Locusts and Terran Bio effectively.

This change may also help PvP, which is dominated by Colossus play. Because Colossus annihilate everything on the ground with ease, and because Stalkers and Archons are an effective counter to Void Rays, late game PvP is one dimensional. Slowing the Colossus down would open up opportunities for Stargate and Warpgate units to exploit Colossus play with their mobility.

These changes would make Siege Tanks and Ultralisks much more effective vs Protoss, and would make late game PvP more interesting. Another style of play that has limited use due to counters is Stargate play. We'll explore that in the section titled "The Carrier Strikes Back."

________________________________________________________

The Revenge of the Marine
________________________________________________________

There is though, one last thing standing in the way of the Siege Tank receiving a damage buff.

The Marine.

[image loading]

"Been waitin' on you." Yeah, well I was waiting on my HOTS key.

Marines are strong the second you get them, they require no upgrades to be powerful, though they scale wonderfully with upgrades. And since they are a mineral only unit, you can combine this powerful all-purpose mineral unit with gas units from the Factory and/or Starport to create incredibly powerful timings attacks, such as the 1-1-1 or 1-1-2, or powerful pressure builds.

Thus, we can't simply buff the Siege Tank without risking early Tank/Marine or Tank/Marine/Banshee pushes becoming too powerful. The only option then, is to nerf the Marine.

Nerfing the Marine is very problematic though. Terran depends on the Marine in combination with Bunkers for early defense, especially for gasless economic openings. Furthermore, we want to avoid reducing the power of Bio in order to make Mech viable. Trading one for another doesn't make the game better, just different.

________________________________________________________

An Old Hope
________________________________________________________

There is hope though. There is one unit that can save Terran from the problems I outlined above.

The Medic.

[image loading]

"Did someone page me?" Yes, yes I did, we need you now more than ever baby.

Imagine for a moment how powerful a 2 rax pressure build (the Reactor-Tech lab version used in TvP) would be if Terran had access to Medics early. It would be incredibly overpowered is what you should be thinking.

And that is why putting the Medic back into the game (with a cost around 25/50) is the solution. The Terran early game depends heavily on the raw power of Bio units to give power to their attacks, or to help them stay alive. If we added the Medic into the mix, we could slightly reduce the durability of unupgraded Marines in the early game because they could be healed. Then we could add Medic upgrades (for instance one could allow a single medic to heal two units at once, while another improves the rate they heal to the same as a Medivac) to give Terran Bio the same potency it has now in mid game and even more potency in late game. And any Medic upgrades could be added right to Tech Lab on the Barracks.

This would allow the Siege Tank to be buffed without having to worry about the 1-1-1 or early Tank/Marine pushes becoming overpowered, since early Marines wouldn't be as effective without support from Medics, and Terran players wouldn't have the gas to afford both Medics and Tanks on a single base. I am imagining the nerf to Marines to be something like reduce their base health by 5 to 40, but increase the health given by Combat Shields from 10 to 15 and increase the cost of Combat Shield to 150/150. This change makes a significant difference in the number of hits the Marine can take before dying to many early units. However, it very well could be too much or not enough. It might also ruin the viability of gasless expands, though I think this could be addressed with some changes to the Bunker.

Furthermore, the Medivac would lose it's ability to heal. Obviously Mech players do not utilize the healing provided by Medivacs, and if the Medivac cost 100/0 instead of 100/100, Terran Mech players could divert that valuable gas to Mech units rather than spend it on Medivacs if they want to be able to drop. Finally, Medivacs filled with Hellions wouldn't simply die immediately to Feedback, seeing as they have no way to drain their Energy. For Bio players, it would also mean Feedback isn't effective versus Drops, though they would have to fill 1 slot in their Dropship with a Medic if they wanted to retain the ability to heal dropped units.

The end result is more flexibility for both Bio and Mech players. Bio players will be able to build Medics from the Barracks and thus don't need to race to the Starport every game for Medivacs for healing if they don't plan to drop early. Instead they can go into Ghosts. It would also free up the Starport for more Viking production, and 6 Medics could do the healing of 12 Medivacs once upgraded, giving a buff to late game Bio. Finally, the Medic would give meaningful changes to Bio play for Terran players in HOTS. And this is important, because at the moment, Bio play is essentially unchanged except for the Reaper.

With the reintroduction of the Medic, Mech players can finally get the improved Siege Tank they need, while Bio players have a new support unit to play with.

________________________________________________________

The Carrier Strikes Back
________________________________________________________

One of the new additions to the Stargate is the Tempest. A long range Capital Ship that is supposed to give Protoss a way to handle Broodlords, allowing Vortex to be removed or changed to effect only ground units.

Unfortunately the Tempest doesn't do it's job, and the Vortex remains the only effective method for stopping a late game Zerg army. Vortex is bad for the game though because it creates situations where the game is decided by just a few actions. For Protoss landing a good Vortex and throwing in a bunch of Archons results in a win. However, if Protoss fails to land a good Vortex or if Zerg is able to Neural Parasite the Mothership before Vortex is fired then Brood/Infestor/Corrupter becomes unstoppable. Either way, the whole game boils down to Vortex.

[image loading]

One of my many attempts to use the Tempest versus Broodlords. Sadly, it didn't work...

[image loading]

...and then I died to mass Corrupter.

Removing Vortex requires two things. First, you need a unit that can effectively battle Broodlords at long range, and second, you need a unit to deal with mass Corrupters.

The solution to battling Broodlords at long range is the Carrier. If the Carrier had it's build time reduced from 120 seconds to 90 seconds, healed any hull damage (but not any shield damage) to Interceptors when they return to the Carrier, and was able to be microed the same way it was in Brood War (as LiquidTyler explains in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369313), then it would be a great addition to Protoss late game and also counter Broodlords.

But why use the Carrier to counter Broodlords and not the Tempest? First, the Tempest simply doesn't have the DPS necessary to deal effectively with Broodlords, even with it's +30 damage upgrade. Consider that a single Viking does 14 DPS to Broodlords while a Tempest with Quantic Reactor does 18.8. Now two Vikings cost a total of 300/150 and do almost 10 more DPS to Broodlords than a single 300/200 Tempest. And the Tempest takes longer to build, requires more tech and has a tendency to overkill units, further reducing it's DPS.

So the Tempest is just an expensive version of the Viking, that can also hit ground units for 30 damage every 3.3 seconds (9 DPS). That doesn't make it worth it's cost.

To fix the Tempest, it's role needs to be defined. Is it going to be an anti-air only unit capable of dealing with Broodlords? In that case, it needs to be cheaper and cost less food like the Viking, (or else a Protoss player will end up with a bunch of flying paperweights versus ground units, which are what Tempests are now) but the last thing we need is more units that are situation specific hard counters that limit unit usage. But what if it was a long range siege unit? In that case it needs a faster attack speed, and it's damage it going to need to be reduced somewhat. And thus it would become a Battle Cruiser with a long range attack. Unfortunately, that would be overpowered.

The Carrier is better because it can fill the role of a long range siege unit without being overpowered. The fact it uses Interceptors means that even if you can't reach the Carrier to attack it, you can kill off the Interceptors and buy yourself time versus Carriers. So we'll see Carriers hitting Broodlords from afar, but Infestors, Corrupters and Hydralisks can pick off the Interceptors and attack the Carriers to protect the Broodlords, meaning the Colossus and Stalkers will need to close to push them back, exposing them to Fungal Growth, ect... That is an interesting battle with lots of dynamics, far better than a battle based solely around Vortex, and unless the Tempest receives Interceptors, than it won't be possible. Finally, the Carrier doesn't overkill and it is useful in other roles than simply countering Broodlords.

But the Tempest has a role in HOTS too. In WOL, the only thing that could stop mass Corrupters from decimating a Protoss army was a well placed Vortex. This is due to the fact that Protoss not only lacks a high DPS ground to air unit, but also a powerful and relatively cheap flying anti-air unit like the Corrupter or Viking. The Phoenix is strong versus light air units, but isn't effective versus armored targets. The Void Ray is too expensive, takes too long to build, and is too slow to be effective versus anything but massive air units.

The result of this is that a Zerg player can mass Corrupters and counter every unit (including the Carrier) that Protoss has except ones built from the Gateway and the Immortal. That leaves Protoss without an effective counter to Infestor/Broodlord, as Fungal Growth seizes even Blink Stalkers so they can't close and engage the Broodlords.

So let's return the Tempest to the role of an AOE anti-air unit, giving it 200 health and 120 shields, a movespeed of 2.75, a 6 range anti-air attack that deals 35 AOE damage to non-massive targets, and 20 damage to massive targets every 2 seconds. Finally we'll give it a ground attack that can hit single units for 25 damage every 1.5 seconds.

Instead of making the Tempest a unit built from the Stargate though, let's make it a transformation of the Phoenix that requires the Fleet Beacon. Phoenixes are currently used to scout, counter light air units and harass. They problem is that they are limited to these roles, and aren't particularly great at any of them. They are a very expensive scout and their effectiveness harassing is usually limited because they can't hit buildings and need energy to kill ground units. They do counter light air units well, but once they have handled the threat of opposing light air units, they are limited to their other roles, and because they are so expensive, it is generally more cost effective to counter Banshees and Mutalisks with Stalkers and High Templars. If they could transform into a Tempest (at a cost of 100-100 over 25 seconds) the same way Corrupters transform in Broodlords then it would add utility to the few Phoenixes a player usually builds early in PvZ. Finally, it could prevent Phoenix massing in PvP after both players open with a Stargate.

The Tempest would now easily handle a flock of Mutalisks, large numbers of Phoenixes or a swarm of Corrupters rushing forward. However, they would be weak versus massive flying units like the Battle Cruiser, Broodlord and Carrier. They would also be weak versus ground units, meaning that Zerg could counter them with Hydralisks or Infestors. Thus, the role of a powerful flying anti-air unit for Protoss that can deal with mass Corrupters has been filled, allowing us to finally remove Vortex.

And then there is one last thing to do. The Mothership needs another spell to replace Vortex. I suggest a spell called Transferance. This spell would cost 50 energy, last 60 seconds and would link the shields of the Mothership and up to 3 nearby massive units (Archons, Colossus or Carriers). Any damage taken to a linked unit would be divided across the 4 units. Thus to deal hull damage to any of the 4 units, you'd have to break through the total combined shields of the 4 units first. This would be an interesting spell for Protoss players to use. They could greatly enhance the survivability of their Mothership by linking it to three Archons. Alternatively, the 350 shields of the Mothership could enhance the survivability of nearby Carriers or Colossus.

These changes make Stargate units more powerful and viable in the late game, while allowing us to remove Vortex.

________________________________________________________

The Return of the Warhound
________________________________________________________

The final pieces of the puzzle necessary to make Mech work is to re-introduce the Warhound (or Goliath), introduce the Flaming Betty, give Mech a better way to repair, and remove the Widow Mine, Thor and Hellbat.

Yes, this puzzle has a lot of pieces, it is for ages 10 and up.

Let's start with the new Warhound. While Tanks have the role of anti-armored and general AOE damage vs. ground units on lockdown, Tanks will obviously need support vs. light units and air units. The Hellion gives Terran AOE damage versus light units, and this is effective versus Zerglings because they can kill a line of them in two shots. However it isn't as effective versus Zealots because the overall DPS of Hellions isn't high enough handle Zealots effectively. So one of the roles of the new Warhound is an anti-light unit.

I've been testing a unit that costs 150/75 and 2 food, has 175 HP, 2 armor, moves at 2.45, and does 25 damage (+3 per upgrade) every second to a single light unit, and 10 damage (+1 per upgrade) to other units. With 2 armor, the Warhound is particularly resistant to Zealots with their two attacks, and you'll note their overall DPS done to light units is the more than stimmed Marauders do to armored units. You'll also note however that this unit won't simply steam roll everything in it's path. It will won't be cost effective versus Roaches, Ultralisks, Tanks, Marauders, Stalkers or Immortals. But it will be effective versus Zealots, Sentries, Marines, Hellions, Hydralisks and Zerglings. See the chart below for more information.

Also the Warhound would provide anti-air capability for Mech, with two attacks doing 10 damage each every 1.5 seconds, with 8 range. The Warhound would have an upgrade at the Tech Lab that would give these attacks AOE damage (similar to the upgrade in the WOL campaign that gave Vikings AOE damage) to help handle Mutalisk balls. Unlike the Thor, but similar to the Marine, the Warhound provides a highly mobile all-purpose anti-air unit for Mech. This allows Warhounds to provide necessary anti-air coverage for spread out Tank lines.

Warhound Test Results:
+ Show Spoiler +

All of these tests were completed with no upgrades, unless specified.

Versus Other Ground Units

1 Warhound vs 1 Siege Tank (Tank Mode) = Tank left with 88 HP
1 Warhound vs 1 Marauder (No Stim) = Warhound left with 13 HP
3 Warhounds (spread out) vs 1 Ultralisk = Ultralisk left with 181 HP
6 Warhounds (clumped) vs 2 Ultralisks = 2 Ultralisks left with 29 and 500 HP
1 Warhound vs 1 Roach = Warhound left with 63 HP
1 Warhound vs 2 Roaches = 2 Roaches left with 31 and 145 HP
1 Warhound vs 1 Queen (on creep) = Warhound left with 91 HP
1 Warhound vs 1 Immortal (current or suggested) = Immortal left with 40 shields, full HP
1 Warhound vs 1 Stalker = Warhound left with 19 HP
2 Warhounds vs 2 Stalkers = 1 Warhound left with 91 HP

Versus Light Ground Units
1 Warhound vs 3 Marines (with Combat Shield, No Stim) = Warhound left with 103 HP
2 Warhounds vs 8 Marines (with Combat Shield, No Stim) = 1 Warhound left with 83 HP
1 Warhound vs 1 Hellion = Warhound left with 159 HP
1 Warhound vs 1 Hydralisk (with Grooved Spines) = Warhound left with 135 HP
1 Warhound vs 6 Zerglings (with Metabolic Boost) = Warhound left with 40 HP
2 Warhounds vs 12 Zerglings (with Metabolic Boost) = 2 Warhounds left with 49 and 58 HP
1 Warhound vs 1 Zealot (with Charge) = 1 Warhound left with 115 HP
1 Warhound vs 2 Zealots (with Charge) = 1 Zealot left with 4 HP
1 Warhound (with +3/+3) vs 2 Zealots (with Charge and +3/+3/+3) = Warhound left with 31 HP
8 Warhounds vs 16 Zealots (with Charge) = 3 Warhounds left with 49, 61 and 103 HP.

Versus Air Units
1 Warhound vs 1 Voidray = Voidray left with 0 Shields, 90 HP
2 Warhounds vs 2 Voidrays = 1 Voidray left with 60 Shields, Full HP.
1 Warhound vs 1 Banshee = Warhound left with 15 HP.
1 Warhound vs 1 Mutalisk = Warhound left with 133 HP.
3 Warhounds vs 1 Battlecruiser (No Yatamoto) = Battlecruiser left with 14 HP.

Now one might say, "doesn't the Hellbat give Terran what it needs versus Zealots?" Well, the Hellbat presents a lot of problems that the Warhound doesn't. First, it only costs minerals, and now again Terran has a powerful mineral only unit from one tech tree that can combined with gas units from another tree. Thus, a Bio player could easily incorporate Hellbats into their builds and we have the same problem we ran into with Marines being combined with Mech units. And the fact that Hellbats can be healed due to their Biological status just exacerbates the problem, and I've seen a lot of players simply adding Hellbats into Terran Bio, which leaves Protoss with even fewer options to deal with MMMGV + Hellbat because Zealots aren't nearly as effective even when the only upgrade the Hellbats have is Blue Flame.

The Hellbat is also too cost effective for a mineral only unit. It is not only an effective main line fighter but it still harass very effectively. Furthermore, when dropped from Medivacs Hellbats easily wipe out a mineral line in a few shots with it's wide arc of fire. Think pre-nerf Blue Flame Hellions!

[image loading]

Dragon cleared out this mineral line in no time...

So now to a unit that will solve a problem that Terran Mech players have had since Brood War, and combined with the Warhound, make the Hellbat and Widow Mine unnecessary. Swan's Flaming Betty (or it could be called the Perdition Turret).

[image loading]

You should be hearing the country music from single player when Swan gives you a new toy...

The purpose of introducing the Flaming Betty to multiplayer is to give Terrans a powerful anti-light AOE attack, a unit that encourages positional play, and a fixed anti-ground defensive structure that doesn't cost gas as Planetary Fortresses do, or food as Widow Mines do.

Every Hellion would be able to put down one permanent Flaming Betty Turret, that would build itself automatically over 10 seconds (so it can't be used offensively and be thrown down in battle or in a mineral line and immediately do damage), have 150 HP, 2 armor, 5 range, and would do the same damage as Hellions and would benefit from the Blue Flame upgrade. It would also have a wider arc of fire similar to Hellbat, be classified as Armored and Mechanical, be able to be repaired by SCVs, and it would not be able to hit air units.

There are many consequences to having this unit in multiplayer. First, it can be used as an anti-ground static defense to help protect Mech players from all-ins and attacks during any stage of the game, the same way Bunkers are used for Bio players. See a powerful attack coming? Throw down some Flaming Bettys!

[image loading]

Flame on!

Also they could be used to protect Siege Tank positions from Zerglings, Zealots and Marines, encouraging positional play. Just like a field of Spider Mines, a bunch of Flaming Bettys in an area is also going to slow the advance of your opponent, giving your Tanks time to fire or reposition.

[image loading]

Siege Tanks think Betty is hot.

Finally, they could be used to defend bases from ground units in the place of Planetary Fortresses for bases that aren't at risk from being attacked by a large army, but are at risk from Zergling run-bys, drop play, or Zealot Warp-ins. This would allow more gas to go into the Mech army itself.

[image loading]

Safe and Sound.

So why is the Flaming Betty better than the Widow Mine?

First, they don't cost supply, gas, or Factory build time, things that are important to Mech players.

Second, they can't be used effectively offensively. I've seen a lot of people using Widow Mines offensively, whether it be running them into the mineral line of an opponent, or blocking expansions with them (like a burrowed Zergling).

[image loading]

Now you see em...

[image loading]

...now you don't.

This might not seem like a big deal, but Widow Mines are built far in advance of any other cloaked or burrowed unit, and mines can stop expansions from going down, and can simply force a player to not collect resources until the mines are cleared, which can be game ending and forces earlier detection.

Third, the Flaming Betty doesn't have such a drastic effect on detection because it isn't cloaked. Widow mines have limited the variety of builds a player can do early, even with Spore Crawlers not requiring an Evolution Chamber and the MSC granting detection. The Flaming Betty does not limit the builds of other races, and we can return detection to a point where the Banshee and Dark Templar can do their job effectively.

Fourth, Flaming Bettys will be used because they are free. The Widow Mine takes up time from the Factory, and due to their expense, supply cost and potential to do very little damage, they may see limited usage in some game.

Fifth, the Flaming Betty has a predictable effect on the game. The Widow Mine deals so much damage that some games simply end in a very anti-climatic fashion if a ball of units comes close to a pack of mines. And in other games the mines will be detected and sniped off and the investment will be a complete waste. This is not a good mechanic because gives the game a coinflippy feel that it doesn't have to have. With the Flaming Betty players won't be praying their opponent doesn't have Widow Mines, or crossing their fingers than their opponent runs their units into a bunch of Widow Mines. The Flaming Betty's effect is predictable, and you won't see whole armies being killed if a player forgets to bring their Observer or Overseer with their army.

[image loading]

AiHonor's switch into mass Tempests caught MorroW off guard, forcing him to go for Honor's base with his army to buy time because he no an anti-air except seven Widow Mines. Thankfully, MorroW positioned his Mines in just the right spot, killing 7 of 12 of Honor's bunched up Tempests as they tried catch MorroW's army. Two of three in the picture with almost no health are about to die, finished off from the Widow Mine on the left which is firing it's rocket in the picture. A very anti-climatic ending to an epic game.

Finally, the Flaming Betty doesn't hit air units or cloaked units. This is key, because the obvious counter to a style of play that emphasizes holding positions is to build units that are extremely mobile to find weak points and outmaneuver your opponent. The Widow Mine deals a lot of damage to everything that comes into range, whether it be a flying unit or a cloaked unit, limiting the obvious counter to positional play.

The power of Mech should not come from the Widow Mine, it should come from the Siege Tank. The Siege Tank should hit hard, not the Widow Mine. If Siege Tanks do enough damage then Mech will work. If they don't, then we'll constantly be looking for something that will do big damage and that we can combine with Siege Tanks so we can say "See Siege Tanks work when you use them with X!" X being the very hard hitting Warhound that was removed or Widow Mine. And in both cases, the Widow Mine and Warhound are better used alone or with other Terran play styles, than in conjunction with Siege Tanks in TvP.

And then the last piece of the puzzle is that Mech play needs a better way to repair their units. Thus, the seldom used auto-turret should be replaced with the Mech repair spell from the single player Science Vessel. Not only would this make it easier for Mech players to repair, but also gives them a way to repair units that doesn't cost resources. No other playstyle in the game is burdened by having to spend resources to repair units.

So now not only is Bio revitalized with the Medic in HOTS, but Mech now has the Warhound, Hellion, and Flaming Betty supporting Siege Tanks. This gives Mech players a viable core of units to use against every race, and these units emphasize positional play, rather than deathball play.

________________________________________________________

Closing Thoughts
________________________________________________________

I started writing this as a piece on why Siege Tanks needed to be more powerful for Mech to work, and how to remove Vortex. But because units are dependent on each other and nothing exists independently, you can't responsibly buff Siege Tanks or remove Vortex without reworking other areas of the game, which in turn effects other areas of the game. And so I ended up writing a piece longer than my college thesis.

I've given a lot of thought to each race, and also to what makes SC2 fun, and believe the above changes would add significantly to each race. However, the changes I've suggested are almost certainly not perfect, but at the very least I hope they spur new ideas and help improve HOTS.

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10317 Posts

October 27 2012 07:09 GMT

Very interesting post. It has some pretty radical changes, but with good support why it would work, and I agree with some stuff.

However I don't think I would like that much change from WOL to HOTS

I think there must be some easier ways to fix these problems. But things like the flaming betty sound really cool.

Anyways I hope blizzard reads this and gives it a good thought!

TooGreedy

Netherlands16 Posts

October 27 2012 08:42 GMT

Finally someone who doesn't only say "this is bad, fix it" but also gives ways of fixing it. I like your post very much, mostly because it would allow for more build, such as pvz stargate and tvp mech. That would really improve the game, and make it a lot more fun to watch, cuz you can't know what the players will do(nowadays its very locked up, T goes for MMM with a timing at 10 min, P would counter this) That is boring. Thx for this post, and i hope blizzard will read this too.

Fenris420

Sweden213 Posts

October 27 2012 08:54 GMT

I want to point something out. I feel like the post is all over the place and that hurts the legitimacy of the points you are trying to make.

Essentially what you are suggesting is:

Change A so that B
Then change B
Then add C
Then change D and E so that C works with B
Then etc...

While the whole concept might work out fine, you are adding and removing to many unknown variables. It is impractical because there is no way for us to know which changes does what. WoL beta was like this out of necessity, but now that we have a knowledge base to stand on, lets not go down that road if we can avoid it.

In my oppinion, we need to make incremental changes, then test to see the result of each change(Blizzard likely does this a lot internally that we know nothing about). What we want is not only a balanced game, we need to know why. Thats the only way to add new units in an oncoming expansion.

But enough about that. Let me comment on what you actually wrote about:

Maps:
I feel that the community dictates how maps look, which is not good since the community as a whole knows very little of map design. Maps at the moment are made with the meta game in mind, but at the same time, the meta game looks like it does because of the maps(daybreak imo is a really bad map for this reason). Changing the maps should not implicate balance in matchups, but rather with strategies to use in said matchups.

Tanks:
Tanks are like colossus to me, cheaper and immobile perhaps, but they do splash that is really good against all ground units. Combine that with the fact that vikings are good against every single unit that flies, and we must be very careful about making the tank too good. The colossus is like that and it is part of the reason why star-/warpgate units can't be better imo.

At the same time, splash should be strong. Positional units should be strong. It is a way to encourage splitting the army up, both against splash, but also with splash against a mobile harassment based army. Imo, if the tank is a glass cannon, it can be good against small groups of light units, but only if it is in the right place. That is a good functionality. Against heavy armor is should not be as effective. Terrans have thors and marauders that both kill armored fairly well, and quite frankly, the unsieged tank is also decent versus armor.

The issue is, imagine a map like daybreak. Terran is sieged up around his watchtower, controlling all three lanes of attack. If siege tanks were as good as some people would like, that is a nigh impossible position to break. So some people say, expand and harass. Which is fine until a point. The same point you get to versus infestor / BL. Some armies cannot be attacked into, and because of it, every single game that reaches that stage becomes a base race or relies on gimmicks like the vortex ability(which should have been removed a long time ago).

If you make immortals weaker against tanks(which is fine), they are also going to be weaker against everything. You make them cheaper to make up for that, but cheaper is better versus mech as well. Maybe if immortals became more of a tank and less of a damage dealer, with more shields or life but less dps. Because currently, they are not cost effective against marauders with stim and most other units kill ultras as well. Making them weaker to make mech more valid also makes bio and zerg more valid against immortals in general.

Counters:
I dislike counters as well, but if protoss can build immortals in response to tanks, what keeps terrans from building ghosts or banshees or bio as a response to immortals? I don't see this as a massive problem. The underlying problem is that terrans "go mech" without bothering with other tech paths. The general consensus is that upgrading is too slow otherwise, something I just don't agree with, but lets assume this is true.

If terrans could add a reactor to their armory, or something else that makes upgrading faster, they would be more incentivized to not go pure mech. Pure mech should NOT be a possible unit composition against every protoss or zerg composition. That is just a silly idea.

Colossus:
I do not like the idea of making the colossus slower. Protoss armies are capped at 2.25 move speed at best anyway, which is only comparable to mech, both bio, skyterran and all zerg compositions are faster(bar BL). Colossus is common in pvp because protoss air is weak. Tempest and possibly void ray will/should change that. I don't mind making the colossus weaker, but it doesnt actually change much about how the unit operates.

For starters, I'd like to remove its ability to walk over friendly units. I think that alone helps make it harder to position the colossus, especially in stalker heavy armies that take up a lot of space. It also makes protoss balls less silly looking.

The second thing I would like to change is how the damage is being dealt. Someone suggested an ability that can be avoided with micro, I like that. Another thing is that the splash colossus currently has punishes concaves and rewards balls. Making it do a circular splash instead, or a hellion-like spray is better imo. Those three small mechanical changes would make the colossus less automatic but still very powerful. I like that idea.

Marines and healers:
Marines are damn strong. No arguing there. However, we know how to deal with them. They are such a core unit and changing them even the slightest will make half of all terran compositions weaker. I don't like that. Especially not since I want more mech builds to incorporate other unit types as well. Bio with medivacs is very iconic and I actually like the synergy. Mostly because it requires a different kind of tech. I also like the fact that feedback is strong vs. drops. Protoss does not have a fast army like the zerg, meaning you would either have to sit at home or build cannons everywhere. I don't like either prospects.

If you want more staying power in the early game, make bunkers slowly regen the life of your units(or something). With no restrictions on how you can heal you units, the offensive power will surely be even better than current stim timings. That is not good for the early game of any matchup imo.

Carriers:
The problem is not that the current carrier doesn't kill broodlords. The problem was never the brood lords. The problem is the 25 corruptors that will just fly in over archons and stalkers alike to snipe all your colossus and air units before they die. Because both players know that infestor/broodlord cannot be engaged on the ground by regular protoss units.

Also, infested terran spam with numerous infestors effectively put an end to carrier micro so fast that you can barely get anything done. All of this for no cost unlike building interceptors.

The tempest removes the problem of infestors by staying at range. It also makes it harder to kill for corruptors. harder but not impossible. With good vision, the amount of dps time a tempest can potentially get is staggering. Thats is why the dps is so low, and I like it that way.

The missing link imo against corruptor/infestor/broodlord is the voidray. VRs can protect you from corruptors as long as they function properly. That is good(as long as they do function properly). The other part is the part where the infestor is just too good. Both fungal and IT feels way too effective in the general case scenario for me, but I will leave zerg units to the zerg players. Besides, you can snipe infestors with tempest now, as long as you have good map vision.

That leaves the carrier in an awkward spot, the same spot it has been in since forever in WoL. If the carrier shot bolts instead of the tempest, cost a bit more and had interceptors to defend it in close range, we could remove the tempest completely and never look back. But since both the VR and the carrier currently feel slightly unwarranted, I can't help but feel like one of them needs to be cut. Otherwise we would have units with very overlapping roles.

Mothership:
I think your suggestion is a pretty good one and vortex has to go either way. Would like to try this out.

Warhound:
Like I said earlier, I think it is the siege tanks job to deal with zealots, especially since hellions are already "decent". Add emp on top of that and you are set. The Thor kills big units, Siege tanks kill many units and hellions kill light units. Widow mine kills every unit with a condition. Overall, terran has a very strong mech composition already. Adding another staple unit makes no sense. Your warhound with marauders would own everything. Mech doesnt need anti air when terran has vikings, thors AND marines. There is no area that these 3 units does not cover.

If I were to add something it would be a caster. A caster with auto-repair, ability to make mines from energy and possibly a third spell of some sort. It could even have the warhound base stats but with much reduced damage output.

Hellions:
If hellions got more mileage out of the hit and run micro that you usually see, they would be fine without battle mode imo. I would rather see pre-igniter changed. Something like a damage over time effect(bio units catch on fire, maybe?) for 3 seconds or so, doing an additional 10(?) damage over time. If you are active, you get a lot more damage done than if you are not. Combined with tanks that are stronger vs light, I don't think mech will have such problems with zealots.

I don't think offensive widow mines are bad either. I love variety. Overall I really like mines as a concept, even if I think it would be better if they were cheaper and more expendable(maybe even free if the warhound is the only thing that can make them). The only real issue I have with them is that they automatically target cloaked units, which I do not like.

The flaming betty is basically siege mode for hellions, and I can't really comment on it since I don't know what the means for the game, but imo, it might not even be necessary if the baseline hellion works just a little bit better.

ArcLiTe

62 Posts

October 27 2012 08:56 GMT

Cool story bro. I enjoy the comic strips.

Insoleet

France1806 Posts

October 27 2012 09:06 GMT

I like all your changes ! I think widow mine can still be cool to protect expansions against blink agression etc... But all other changes are very good. Hopefully blizzard will read this...

BronzeKnee

United States5214 Posts

October 27 2012 15:37 GMT

On October 27 2012 17:54 Fenris420 wrote:
I want to point something out. I feel like the post is all over the place and that hurts the legitimacy of the points you are trying to make.

Essentially what you are suggesting is:

Change A so that B
Then change B
Then add C
Then change D and E so that C works with B
Then etc...

Thank you for the comments.

Making Immortals cheaper does make them more accessible, and I think this is a good thing. First, more players will utilize them in their army, and because they aren't a Warpgate unit that can be warped around, it slows the game down a bit. Furthermore without hardened shields and a bit less HP, Tanks will decimate them at long range.

The Carrier is in a bad spot because it takes way to long to build. And even when it's done, it still has to build Interceptors, and then it can't be microed properly, and the Interceptors have no way to heal. If you fix those things, I think it becomes viable. But you can't just leave the Carrier in the spot it is in and expect somehow it to work. Some people think the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Seems to apply here. Remember that the Ultralisk had it's build time reduced to make it viable because frankly, it was terrible.

Because of the nature Zerg, and how they can switch from mass Roach army to mass Corrupters in a mere 40 seconds, for Void Rays to effective counter Corrupters they would have to deal AOE damage, which is an option, but I like Void Rays where they are now.

The see the Flaming Betty as a replacement for the Spider Mine in terms of positional play and map control, and also as a fixed ground defense that Mech lacks (Bio has the Bunker).

I think most of our disagreements are philosophical regarding how the game should work. You think Tanks should counter Zealots, and I don't. I don't think offensive Mines are good for the game, you do. I like Void Rays where they are, you don't. And that is ok.

I do feel very strongly though that Tanks need a buff, we need to adjust the Marine in order to make that buff, and that the Colossus is so much better as an AOE long range unit that it needs to be nerfed somehow in order to make tanks viable, less every Protoss play "crosses the T" against their Terran opponent.

Interestingly, I have yet to lose to a Mech composition, and in one game I had an army of Immortal, Archon and Stalker and he tried to switch into Bio. The result was 1/0 Marines, Ghosts, and Marauders vs 3/3 Immortals and Stalkers. He blanketed me with EMPS, but I still rolled him, and I've never seen anything like it.

The hardest thing for me to deal with in HOTS is Bio compositions that include Widow Mines and Hellbats. Widow Mines give good map control and positional play on their own, without Tanks and Hellbats are great vs Zealots when MMM is behind, even without upgrades.

My experience has been that the Tank is still as useless as ever in HOTS, and that high level Terran players will just add Widow Mines and Hellbats to their arsenel and PvT will be mostly unchanged.

Archon96

United States38 Posts

October 27 2012 15:42 GMT

"But just a few minutes later, Hasuobs flanks the powerful Mech force using Warpgate units, and crashing through a thin defensive line he decimates TLO's economy. TLO lacked the mobility to return to his base and defend, and small numbers of Siege Tanks simply crumbled under the Gateway pressure."

Actually stopped reading there, TLO had multiple medivacs with a ton of bio forces if you argument even was siege tanks are immobile. That's the point of the siege tank--immobility. Nevertheless, most meching terran will always have siege tanks in their main to prevent that.

I believe mech is already viable. I just don't think it's easy. The question is, are you trying to mech or are you trying to do it easier? If you compare mech to bio, of course it's hard...you're more immobile and can be punished harder. Frankly, a more mobile army is the counter to mech, that's not imbalance it's just how it is.

BronzeKnee

United States5214 Posts

October 27 2012 15:47 GMT

On October 28 2012 00:42 Archon96 wrote:
"But just a few minutes later, Hasuobs flanks the powerful Mech force using Warpgate units, and crashing through a thin defensive line he decimates TLO's economy. TLO lacked the mobility to return to his base and defend, and small numbers of Siege Tanks simply crumbled under the Gateway pressure."

Actually stopped reading there, TLO had multiple medivacs with a ton of bio forces if you argument even was siege tanks are immobile. That's the point of the siege tank--immobility. Nevertheless, most meching terran will always have siege tanks in their main to prevent that.

I believe mech is already viable. I just don't think it's easy. The question is, are you trying to mech or are you trying to do it easier? If you compare mech to bio, of course it's hard...you're more immobile and can be punished harder. Frankly, a more mobile army is the counter to mech, that's not imbalance it's just how it is.

I actually play Protoss which you'd figure out if you kept reading. My experience has been how easy it is to win vs Mech players. I've also watched a significant amount of MorroW, Dragon and Avilo stream HOTS.

The point of the TLO/Hasuobs example wasn't to show the immobility of Mech, it was to show how a few defensive Siege Tanks and supporting units are completely unable to cope with Warpgate counter attacks. Mech needs more options in order to deal with Warpgate counterattacks because they are so strong, and I explain that in the article:

+ Show Spoiler +

BronzeKnee wrote:
If a Bio player outmaneuvers the main army of a Mech player and rushes a few Tanks defending an expansion, his attack force can take significant damage and lose units on the first volley. This is rarely the case versus Protoss because of the durability of Protoss Gateway units; they simple don't take critical damage from a single Tank shot. Furthermore a Protoss player can use Warpgates to attack different locations with large forces quickly, straining the limited mobility of Mech. Tanks simply lack both the mobility and firepower to respond to these kinds of attacks effectively.

In my opinion, Tanks should lack mobility, but they shouldn't lack firepower. They also need some help, which I suggest in the last section.

Archon96

United States38 Posts

October 27 2012 15:57 GMT

#10

"Mech needs more options..." Every race and strategy could use more options. Zerg want to use hydralisks and ultralisks and perhaps even vipers without going to infestor broodlord in every matchup, Protoss would like to use air outside of the early game and even against Terran. That much is undeniable. It looks like you put a lot of thought into this, which is why I'm sad to say I disagree with you(I'm allowed to say so I hope)

It's not just disagreement about your stance on mech either, I feel tempests do counter broodlords, at least more effectively than stalkers right now. Your ideas are interesting but I don't know if that's where things should be headed.

BronzeKnee

United States5214 Posts

October 27 2012 16:03 GMT

#11

On October 28 2012 00:57 Archon96 wrote:
"Mech needs more options..." Every race and strategy could use more options. Zerg want to use hydralisks and ultralisks and perhaps even vipers without going to infestor broodlord in every matchup, Protoss would like to use air outside of the early game and even against Terran. That much is undeniable. It looks like you put a lot of thought into this, which is why I'm sad to say I disagree with you(I'm allowed to say so I hope)

It's not just disagreement about your stance on mech either, I feel tempests do counter broodlords, at least more effectively than stalkers right now. Your ideas are interesting but I don't know if that's where things should be headed.

I do think every race and strategy could use more options, and that is the point of this thread. I'm not sure where you are going with that.

You are absolutely allowed to disagree, if you have better ideas please share! I thank you for your comments, though you have to understand when you say "I stopped reading when I read this..." doesn't show any investment, nor does it give us anything to talk about expect the disregard you have for what I've written. Frankly, it is rude. It is a "I'm going to take my toys and go home" attitude that doesn't further discussion, it does the opposite.

You see, it is really easy find 100 people who can tell you why something is wrong, but really hard to find just one person who will help you fix it. If I am headed in the wrong direction, then turn me around my friend...

So I'd like it if could you explain how I can get the Tempest could work versus Broodlords. If you explain it to me, then I'd be happy to try it on ladder. And then I would have learned something, and I love to learn.

But when you are unwilling to share your knowledge so I can't learn, I don't like that because again it is "I'm going to take my toys and go home" attitude. It also makes me question whether or not you really know what you are talking about, because you won't share.

I think you approached my article with an attitude that this guy is wrong, and your just criticizing everything, evidenced by the fact that I say "Mech need more options" and your response is "Every race and strategy could use more options"...

gobbledydook

Australia2599 Posts

October 27 2012 16:14 GMT

#12

Colossus play positioning is extremely important in all matchups. Balling up your Colossus is not as efficient as spreading them in a concave, and opposing units should also spread because it reduces the number of units Colossus hits.
In fact PvP is all about who has the better concave in the endgame.

Schickysc

Canada380 Posts

October 27 2012 16:28 GMT

#13

I like your post. Interesting ideas which could be altered or played with to make good changes.

Archon96

United States38 Posts

October 27 2012 16:33 GMT

#14

On October 28 2012 01:03 BronzeKnee wrote:

Show nested quote +

I do think every race and strategy could use more options, and that is the point of this thread. I'm not sure where you are going with that.

You are absolutely allowed to disagree, if you have better ideas please share! I thank you for your comments, though you have to understand when you say "I stopped reading when I read this..." doesn't show any investment, nor does it give us anything to talk about expect the disregard you have for what I've written. Frankly, it is rude. It is a "I'm going to take my toys and go home" attitude that doesn't further discussion, it does the opposite.

You see, it is really easy find 100 people who can tell you why something is wrong, but really hard to find just one person who will help you fix it.

So I'd like it if could you explain how I can get the Tempest could work versus Broodlords. If you explain it to me, then I'd be happy to try it on ladder. And then I would have learned something, and I love to learn.

But when you are unwilling to share your knowledge so I can't learn, I don't like that because again it is "I'm going to take my toys and go home" attitude. It also makes me question whether or not you really know what you are talking about, because you won't share.

I think you approached my article with an attitude that this guy is wrong, and your just criticizing everything, evidenced by the fact that I say "Mech need more options" and your response is "Every race and strategy could use more options"...

Well if that's how you feel or if you feel that I commented with a bias or unfairly toward you as a person, then I apologize. But know that is not the reason. I said I stopped reading in honesty and skimmed through your main points. Why? Because it's already been rehashed over and over and over. Understandably so, it can get frustrating to carry on, and to do so with a high level of interest to read the same argument again and again. I wasn't approaching your article with an "this guy is wrong attitude," but quite the opposite, I was excited to see a different argument and your opinion. That is the only reason I am here right now anyways, I took my time out of playing a sc2 match to say hey, this guy is talking about mech, awesome, let's check it out.

As for tempest to work--make 4 tempest, no more no less, don't bother getting air weapons, if you have extra money get air armor. 4 tempests on target fire will 1 shot a broordlord(20 tempest on target fire or not target fire with +3 will also 1 shot a broodlord) Obs is hard to use because of spores, overseer so you need to use revelation. Target fire the broods with tempest, they will start dying every 3.3 seconds. The corruptors will swarm in, making them viable targets for your stalkers and templar(of course you'll have an army too not just tempest.) Target fire the corruptors with stalkers and after queuing up attacks, storm the corruptors. The tempests have enough hit-points to weather some blows. It really boils down to control and micro(doesn't everything), micro back the tempest that is getting focused from the corruptor. Usually the broods will close during this and infested terrans shoot everywhere, use storms and micro back the stalkers to avoid getting hit by broodlords for as much time as possible. The important thing to note is your entire army is on hold position covering the tempest just like how zerg's entire army is covering the broordlord. Don't just attack move in, that'll always lose.

As for the evidenced portion of every race/strategy using more options. I don't know what you're hinting at here. It's inherently obvious that in a strategy game everyone would love to have a multitude of strategies to employ. Think abstractly here. That doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong for wanting to have strategy. You need to consider what tactics and changes that effect has not only on one race, but BOTH the other race and the mirror of the race being changed which I feel was not done too well.

Again, I'm just someone who was trying to weigh in input. I hope you get a lot of attention here and I was coming to +1 actually, but nevertheless good luck to you sir and go get'm with those tempests.

BronzeKnee

United States5214 Posts

October 27 2012 17:17 GMT

#15

On October 28 2012 01:33 Archon96 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 28 2012 01:03 BronzeKnee wrote:

I do think every race and strategy could use more options, and that is the point of this thread. I'm not sure where you are going with that.

You are absolutely allowed to disagree, if you have better ideas please share! I thank you for your comments, though you have to understand when you say "I stopped reading when I read this..." doesn't show any investment, nor does it give us anything to talk about expect the disregard you have for what I've written. Frankly, it is rude. It is a "I'm going to take my toys and go home" attitude that doesn't further discussion, it does the opposite.

You see, it is really easy find 100 people who can tell you why something is wrong, but really hard to find just one person who will help you fix it.

So I'd like it if could you explain how I can get the Tempest could work versus Broodlords. If you explain it to me, then I'd be happy to try it on ladder. And then I would have learned something, and I love to learn.

But when you are unwilling to share your knowledge so I can't learn, I don't like that because again it is "I'm going to take my toys and go home" attitude. It also makes me question whether or not you really know what you are talking about, because you won't share.

I think you approached my article with an attitude that this guy is wrong, and your just criticizing everything, evidenced by the fact that I say "Mech need more options" and your response is "Every race and strategy could use more options"...

I attempted what you were saying, and didn't seem to have the gas, but my opponent went for a Swarm Host and Corrupter attack, and when it failed, kept doing it, so I didn't get to try what you suggest.

My experience has been (and maybe I'm just not expanding quickly enough) that I don't have enough gas for everything your talking about on 3 bases. Normally in WOL I get out 4 Colossus, two Immortals, 4-6 Sentries at the start depending on what I need to keep me safe, have a ball of Stalkers and I add in a Mothership for Vortex and 5-6 Archons. I usually open with some Stargate harrass while taking my third. A long with my upgrades I have just enough gas. And I usually have this composition come together right as the Broodlord/Infestor comes on the field (~15-17 minute mark). Adding in Storm + four Tempests needs I have to cut something, that is 1000 gas I normally don't have, and that assumes I don't use all my High Templars for Archons (generally have about 5-6 Archons), and if I do then I need 150 more gas per HT for Storm.

Previously I tried cutting out the Mothership (as I show with the pictures above), but I probably overbuilt the Tempest. The problem I ran into though was that the Mothership cost 8 supply, 4 Tempests is exactly double that, meaning I had less overall for the rest of my force.

What stage of the game are you using this during? And if the Zerg player just throws everything at your ball what do you do? That is the point where the low DPS of Tempests becomes a real problem, being the battle is going to be over in 15 seconds or less.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

October 27 2012 17:32 GMT

#16

The mech stuff is unfocused, makes unfounded assumptions and bad conclusions. No, we're not going to increase tank DPS by 50%. And no, we're not going to nerf the shit out of immortals by removing hardened shields, cutting their HP by 17%, and reducing their damage.

There are new units, strategies and tactics in HOTS. Let's give players time to work out how to play before we break every MU in order to encourage one particular style of play in one MU.

BronzeKnee

United States5214 Posts

October 27 2012 17:34 GMT

#17

On October 28 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:
The mech stuff is unfocused, makes unfounded assumptions and bad conclusions.

Care to elaborate?

Qikz

United Kingdom12022 Posts

October 27 2012 17:48 GMT

#18

I like what you're saying, but I really think the widow mine is actually the best designed unit in the entire game right now.

It's definately the best designed unit in hots.

MugenXBanksy

United States479 Posts

October 27 2012 17:55 GMT

#19

I dunno bro medics and medivacs.... I don't think so maybe if they are just dropships again.

p1cKLes

United States342 Posts

October 27 2012 17:56 GMT

#20

Well I'm not sure that I agree with the solutions, but I do agree that something needs to be done about mech in TvP. I feel like the issues really boil down to a few units:

1. Tank
2. Thor, but specifically the 250MM cannons.
3. Immortal
4. Or, unit x - Bring in a unit such as the warhound to help address this issue. The problem with the warhound was it was a pretty bad design. It was the colossus of Terran. No micro, high damage.

And the two solutions they provided only help slightly, because the two units were not directly designed to help mech. Hellbat, which was designed to tank zealots. This is an issue whether you go bio or mech. Widow mines which were designed for map control. Yes, it provides a side benefit of only slightly helping mech, but IMO unless you directly fix mech with 1 or 2 of the 4 options above, I think we will continue to be in the same boat we are in right now.

BTW, I appreciate anyone that takes this much time putting together a thread. It's not easy and when people just come in here, read half of it and then dump on it... well, that's not exactly nice

Thx for the thread...

1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All

Please or register to reply.

How to make Mech and Stargate play viable.

Completed

Ongoing

Upcoming